January 1998: The Procol Harum e-mail List

Procol Harum

Beyond
the Pale

The Procol Harum e-mail list archive

January 1998 (thanks, Bill Hammell)

Related question: in his book "Rock Lists" (page 191; 1994 paperback edition) Dave Marsh wrote "A Whiter Shade of Pale" was "based on an old English poem of the same name". I e-mailed him earlier this year, but he didn't provide the specific reference. Myth or truth, anyone?

Well, Marsh turns up from time to time in various places on aol, so maybe he'll grace us with a reply.

...which gave the English-speaking world an enduring cliche to describe dancing. I always figured Keith deliberately turned this on its head, as a fandango is a distinctly un-joyous dance, not much light or fantastic about it.

All in all, "L'Allegro" is a disjointed series of images of fun and revelry, which makes AWSOP sort of structurally similar to it. But I don't find any other similar lines, except maybe where Milton says, "...and every shepherd tells his tale..." which would definitely be a stretch.

But that brings us to Geoffrey Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales," one of which is "The Miller's Tale." I don't have any Chaucer within reach right now to consult, but I don't think I see (or, more importantly, saw, as I was between freshman and sophomore years of college when AWSOP came out, and was a literate little f***er, so I definitely would have noticed) any detailed resemblance or inspiration. I think "The Miller's Tale" was the one where the wife farted in her drunken husband's face.

Now, back to Milton. The companion poem to "L'Allegro" was "Il Penseroso," and I have just scanned through it also to see if Keith had picked up anything from it. Probably not, but I'd advise any admirer of Keith's lyrics to mosey down to the library and read these two poems.

"There let the pealing organ blow, To the full-voiced quire below, In service high and anthems clear, As may with sweetness, through mine ear, Dissolve me into ecstasies, And bring all Heaven before mine eyes..." Snake <<< ============= My bet is that Dave Marsh Did mean The Canterbury Tales - an "OLDE-English poem" - or was it Middle English? Roland? ;-)

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"A Whiter Shade of Pale" was "based on an old English poem of the same name". I e-mailed him earlier this year, but he didn't provide the specific reference. Myth or truth, anyone?

Old English doesn't have a very high proportion of recognisable words to the non-specialist and I certainly don't remember reading of anything from that era with similar title to AWSoP.

'This inimitable phrase, the world's first aural glimpse of Gary Brooker, is Reid's witty distortion of the phrase 'trip the light fantastic', meaning to dance. Its origins appear to lie in the English poet John Milton's 'Trip it as you go, on the light fantastic toe' (L'Allegro, 1632); Benjamin Disraeli's 1826 novel Vivian Grey has a character who prides himself 'on his light fantastic toe'. To 'skip the light fantastic' became common parlance; like many literary phrases in Procol Harum songs, we recognise it from conversation as much as from reading.'

But that brings us to Geoffrey Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales,". I think "The Miller's Tale" was the one where the wife farted in her drunken husband's face.

Half right. Alison farts in her would-be lover Absalon's face so as to stop him pestering her while she's in bed with the student Nicholas who has duped her husband into spending the night in a wooden tub lashed in the rafters of his hall waiting for Noah's Flood. It was established early in the poem that Absalon was 'somewhat squeamish of farting'. Great stuff.

'The Miller's Tale is the famously bawdy bottom-out-the-window episode from Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales, written in the late 1300s (the only part that might make one's face turn pale is the student's tale of Noah's Flood returning, but we're not intended to believe in it: he simply wants to dupe the gullible old carpenter, his landlord, into spending the night in a surrogate boat high in the roof of his house waiting for the water to rise, so that the student can go to bed with the landlord's passionate young wife)'

is how I summarised the AWSoP (non-) connection in the previously mentioned piece.

An "OLDE-English poem" - or was it Middle English? Roland? ;-) Middle English, definitely not Old English :-)

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And thanks also for those great Anagrams at Beyond the Pale - YOU wrote them, right? :-)

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See my correction, before you do. You could tell'em that I'll put the full AWSoP article up at 'Beyond the Pale' before long since there seems to be some interest in it!

And thanks also for those great Anagrams at Beyond the Pale - YOU wrote them, right? :-)

But I hope anyone who's following the puzzles Beyond the Pale remembers that the seven prize-winners will be those who get their answers in *first*.

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In the 'Literary Echoes' paragraph I posted yesterday I had a 'skip' where I should have had a 'trip'. My paragraph should have read

'This inimitable phrase, the world's first aural glimpse of Gary Brooker, is Reid's witty distortion of the phrase 'trip the light fantastic', meaning to dance. Its origins appear to lie in the English poet John Milton's 'Trip it as you go, on the light fantastic toe' ('L'Allegro', 1632); Benjamin Disraeli's 1826 novel 'Vivian Grey' has a character who prides himself 'on his light fantastic toe'. To 'trip the light fantastic' became common parlance; like many literary phrases in Procol Harum songs, we recognise it from conversation as much as from reading.'

As well as subsituting 'fandango' for 'fantastic', Keith Reid changed the 'trip' of common parlance (even though it had acquired an extra meaning 8-} since Milton's day) into 'skip' (a word for which he also exhibited fondness on the 'Shine on Brightly' album).

These subtle verbal echoes in AWSoP had a parallel in the way that the music (organ melody / bassline) teasingly referred to and built on past masters; it's such a shame that the pundits and media-reductionists fastened only on the 'Bach' business. I've seen Milton and Reid equated only once in print: 'Mojo' (I think) called KR 'The Mile End Milton'.

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[...] These subtle verbal echoes in AWSoP had a parallel in the way that the music (organ melody / bassline) teasingly referred to and built on past masters; it's such a shame that the pundits and media-reductionists fastened only on the 'Bach' business. I've seen Milton and Reid equated only once in print: 'Mojo' (I think) called KR 'The Mile End Milton'.

Hey don't knock that Bach comparison that always pops up, it was that very reason that I got into these guys in the first place :o)

Actually, I'd love to hear them do an album of Bach adaptations. Keith could add words to non-cantata works. I think it would be very cool indeed.

Bill _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ Bill Hammell - bill@progrock.org /_/ _/ Mgr: Livgren/Elefante, Wakeman, Yes, Procol Harum Email Lists /_/ _/ Kerry Livgren: http://progrock.org/livgren/ /_/ _/ John Elefante: http://progrock.org/elefante/ /_/ _/ irc.progrock.org - channel #livgren Livgren IRC Chat /_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

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Hey don't knock that Bach comparison that always pops up, it was that very reason that I got into these guys in the first place :o)

I take your point! But if you're anything like me it was your ears that drew your attention to the song's baroque undertow, not a bunch of music-critics!

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Hey don't knock that Bach comparison that always pops up, it was that very reason that I got into these guys in the first place :o) <<

I don't mind the Bach reference at all, as long as the press acknowledges the true composer of the Organ Melody - i.e. Matthew Fisher. I don't think they've ever done that totally to my satisfaction - Yet. . Dawn Eden's recent MOJO article comes the closest (THANKS, DAWN!!! :-)).. I hope hers is just the first of many articles correcting that 30 year oversight..With an Immortal piece of music like AWSoP, it's Never too late to correct such errors.

The first place at BtP I go is to "What's New" - just as you do! BTW - I don't think you mentioned the Derk Richardson review of the 1991 Palace of Fine Arts gig yet in What's New - can ya do that?

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While on vacation in San Diego last week I found a Japanese single of "Skip Softly (My Moonbeams)"/"Rambling On." Some of you may be familiar with the Japanese practice of including lyrics in all records, often transcribed by ear by someone who has a very imperfect grasp of the language the record is sung in. The lyrics to "Skip Softly," as printed inside the disc's cover insert, provide a good example. I present them here in their entirety, exactly as printed...they start out fairly accurate but quickly get *strange*:

Skip softly my moon beams Avoid being seen Pretend that perhaps you were part of a dream Which seen by some others So passionate like me Would only go smiling Not out of grief For I have a tail That stares up to heaven Reach straight down to hell And I cried to the last thing But you can't become to know it I soon talked to you And I'm gone to a wall

The transcribed lyrics to "Rambling On" also include a few amusing lines, such as "showing a bad man's movie," "the sawdust in my pencil," and "Luckly [sic], I broke no bonds only two of my underclothes."

The foldout cover insert of the disc features the same front cover artwork as the American _Shine On Brightly_ LP, with the song title printed in yellow in very elegantly wrought Japanese ideograms. The interior features the same design as the interior of the album's gatefold. The back cover is taken up with an essay in Japanese.

I've been a collector of Procol picture sleeves such as this one for many years. A few examples can be viewed on my web site if you are interested...just visit the "Collectors' Corner" section.

Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm....I meant to send the following to the Whole Email List but it seems only Roland got it - Twice! I Think I clicked on "Reply to All" both times.. Oh well - try try again...Here it is...I HOPE! ;-)

BTW - I don't think you mentioned the Derk Richardson review of the 1991 Palace of Fine Arts gig yet in What's New - can ya do that?<< Believe it or not, that piece is not scheduled to appear until 20th January! <<<

Hmmm...I saw the piece up there already.. Maybe someone else already sent it in? I just hoped it would be mentioned in What's New, so people would know it was there. But perhaps it's not New after all... ???

I suggest people check it out - it's in the On Stage Section I believe. Derk is a hightly respected music journalist in San Francisco. He described the sound of the band and its members' strengths beautifully, as well as the great audience response to this early 90's performance (one of their first with the Prodigal Stranger tour- with Tim Renwick on guitar), but he seemed to feel the need to apologize for being a PH fan and talk about "nostalgia" repeatedly..

I have a tape of that gig and it did sound great - especially MF, and I also liked Tim Renwick's playing - always have. He did some beautiful work with Al Stewart (as did Pete Solley, btw).. Mark B didn't sound as obnoxious to me as he did on tapes of some later performances with Geoff W - who also sounded obnoxious. I wonder if the 2 of them egged each other on to play with less and less finesse...If you want examples of what I mean - check out the CD-EP of Repent Walpurgis, and/or that same song on the Edmonton 92 video.

MF's organ also seemed to be less prominent on some of the later 90's gigs. Was this a function of the amateur tapes I have, or possibly the type of Hammond he was using? Does anyone know if he only used the B3 on all the US and UK 90's gigs, or sometimes used an M100? I'm beginning to think I like the sound of the M100 so much better than the B3. The M100 was the AWSoP Hammond - that Ethereal Sound.

And a related question - what model(s) Hammond did MF use on the First 3 PH albums?

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I watched the last 15 minutes of 3rd Rock from the Sun on New Year's Eve and all of a sudden, at the end, the played a part of AWSOP! Unfortunately, I don't know WHY they played it because I was talking to my husband, Gary, during earlier moments in the show so I missed the context...but it was weird: Here was the year I went to Redhill to see PH and all of a sudden, on New Year's Eve, on some show I only watch when I have nothing better to do, they played AWSOP! Anyone out there see this same show and know why they played it at the end? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want examples of what I mean - check out the CD-EP of Repent Walpurgis, and/or that same song on the Edmonton 92 video.

Where could I get this Edmonton 92 video? I've been looking for that video for so many years.

____ _ _ _ _ / ___| |__ (_) |___| |_ ___ _ __ | | | '_ \| | / __| __/ _ \| '_ \ Normand Despins | |___| | | | | \__ \ || (_) | | | | Quebec \____|_| |_|_|_|___/\__\___/|_| |_| Canada

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Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html

Hi there, This post reminded me of a question I've been asking around for some time now: which version of PH lyrics is genuine (i.e. corresponds to what's been actually sung on the officially released LP). On my site, I deliberately keep some PH lyrics as they were printed on LP sleeves. Unfortunately, I don't remember the origin of most of them. By way of example, here's an excerpt from PILGRIM'S PROGRESS at my site:

At first I took my way to be an anchoret I gathered all my fears to ride me round But then I clearly saw my own illusions And found this struggle further bogged me down

At first I towed my weight to be an anchor I gathered up my fears to bide me 'round But then I clearly saw my own delusion And found my struggles further bogged me down

I'd gladly replace all lyrics at my site with one big link to the BtP site if I were sure that theirs is The Gospel. KR doesn't seem to be available for consultation. Is there any official songbook or other source 100% authentic?

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I posted about that show last year, and at the PH WebSite in a couple of places - I think it was by far their Funniest!! It had a '60's theme - hence the use of AWSoP - that is, the Organ Solo, Matthew's Melody. It was used in such a lovely place too - Jane Curtain's character said "Peace" and the scene switched to a shot of a full moon and the starry night sky - a perfect backdrop for Matthew's ethereal music - I was Thrilled when I first saw/heard this show! My only complaint - it was faded out too soon.

BTW - The most Hilarious section of the show was where the aliens misinterpreted a box of Xmas ornaments. LOL!! I guess it was a Xmas type show, hence the rerun in his Holiday season.

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I'd gladly replace all lyrics at my site with one big link to the BtP site if I were sure that theirs is The Gospel

No, please don't take the 'Beyond the Pale' words as gospel. Jens and I are aware of numerous doubtful readings and are taking the necessary (slow) steps to rectify this.

Gary Brooker has a download of all our estimated words and has volunteered to go through them at some stage, but says there's too much detail to change over the telephone, so don't hold your breath! Keith Reid agrees that if the words are going to be published on the internet they might as well be the right words, and has expressed an interest, in principle, in helping to sort them out.

But I hope BtP visitors appreciate that this is some long road, and it may go nowhere.

I wonder what we really mean by 'authentic' in the case of a rock song which evolves over time or mutates in the mind of its performers? Mental blocks are frequent! Are the 'right words' of a song the ones on the recording (which version?) or the ones sung in concert (which gig?) or the version printed in the CD insert (no!) or published in the song-book (probably not!)?

Doubtless it would be lovely if BtP were to publish a full scholarly 'variorum' edition listing words of every alternate performance. Is anyone volunteering to compile it?

It would be really helpful if enthusiasts would listen to their PH rarities and send us transcriptions (however patchy) of the words to 'This Old Dog', 'Chasing (for) the Chop', 'Last Train to Niagara', 'So Far Behind', 'Count Your Blessings', 'One Eye on the Future', 'I'm a Reader ...', 'A Robe of Silk', 'MacGregor', 'Old Black Joe', 'Alpha', 'Fat Cats', 'Leave the Candle', 'Badlands', 'Into the Flood' ... and whatever else there may be.

Jens and I would really appreciate some help with these. Perhaps no one fan can 'hear' all the words, but collaboratively we might well be able to piece the words together. If you look at

you'll see how how far we've got so far ... thanks to the help of various correspondents.

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Thanks for the info. I remember the 60s theme and Joan Curtain saying "Peace." Nice to know the context! You're right though: I wished they'ed played more of Matthew's organ solo, they cut it off far too soon! That's Hollywood for you...

P.S. On another note...I saw "Heaven and Earth" (1993) with Tommy Lee Jones on the tube a few months ago. During one scene, AWSOP played on a radio in the background as Jones talked to another character. I must admit so I cranked it up so I could hear the song and not the dialog!

Jem33@aol.com wrote: Hi Diane! I posted about that show last year, and at the PH WebSite in a couple of places - I think it was by far their Funniest!! It had a '60's theme - hence the use of AWSoP - that is, the Organ Solo, Matthew's Melody. It was used in such a lovely place too - Jane Curtain's character said "Peace" and the scene switched to a shot of a full moon and the starry night sky - a perfect backdrop for Matthew's ethereal music - I was Thrilled when I first saw/heard this show! My only complaint - it was faded out too soon. BTW - The most Hilarious section of the show was where the aliens misinterpreted a box of Xmas ornaments. LOL!! I guess it was a Xmas type show, hence the rerun in his Holiday season. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<< The BtP version: At first I towed my weight to be an anchor I gathered up my fears to bide me 'round But then I clearly saw my own delusion And found my struggles further bogged me down Perhaps definite answers will be forthcoming in the ongoing debates over PH lyrics. I have heard slightly different lyric phrases too, which differ from some I have read at BtP website. So let me throw mine into the mix. Re: PP " At first I took my weight to be an anchor, I gathered up my fears to ride me round" ......and later, during the chorus..... "In searching I forsook the paths of learning, And so did stead to find some pirates' gold"

I am glad to read tonight that Roland and Jens have taken steps to involve KR/GB in setting it all straight. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Roland, Thanks for the response. I'm glad that something's being done at last to produce an honest-to-goodness collection of PH lyrics. Let's hope that GB & KR can find some time and help to sort this out. Can MF be approached with this too? After all, it was he who sang the Pilgrim's Progress. As I mentioned earlier, I think that the very first version of the song that appeared on the original LP should be considered genuine. From my experience I know that musicians tend to get bored singing the same stuff over and over again, so they make up words to cheer themselves up, to fill in forgotten parts, to show off in front of a cute groupie or just for the hell of it. I volunteer to do any technical work that is necessary to put it all together. I'd like it to be my way of saying thanks for the beautiful heritage left by PH. Please count me in.

P.S.: Let's start a contest. The question is: what words were sort of whispered on "'Twas Tea-Time at the Circus". "King Jimmy, he was there" is Jens's version. I tend to disagree. Let's everyone make his/her guess!

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Roland Clare wrote: At 10:44 02/01/98 -0500, Bill Hammell wrote: Hey don't knock that Bach comparison that always pops up, it was that very reason that I got into these guys in the first place :o) I take your point! But if you're anything like me it was your ears that drew your attention to the song's baroque undertow, not a bunch of music-critics! Roland In the Detroit area the first radio play of AWSoP was a black station WCHB 1440 AM "Soul Radio" in 1967. The Bach comparison is interesting also consider Percy Sledge's "When A Man Loves A Woman" -NOT Michael Bolton's.

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The question is: what words were sort of whispered on "'Twas Tea-Time at the Circus".

It's a lot clearer on the 'Edmonton' recording than on 'Shine on Brightly'. At Redhill I heard only 'Jimi, he was there'.

'(gap) He was there', with two semi-quavers ["sixteenth notes"] hovering aimlessly above the gap.

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To: George <pcmcia@geocities.com CC: Roland Clare <roland.clare@virgin.net, procol@progrock.org

I mailed this question to Matthew, as I was thinking the same way as you. Matthew is usually wery nice in answering my requests, but I haven't heard from him on this issue yet. It is a possibility that he might not remember, after all this is almost 30 years ago, and as he left the band immedeately after the recording of ASD, he probably hasn't done this song later. I will repport on any progress on this issue.-- Shine On! Jens

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jens Anders Ravnaas - Kristiansand - Norway

Life is like a beanstalk. Isn't it? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Hi, everybody. Hang around Beyond the Pale and read "Around & about Procol Harum" (Bud Scoppa & Jean-Charles Costa, Rock, 21 June 1971). I don't agree with everything on it, but it's really first-class. As a journalist, all my respect to Scoppa & Costa, though I don't have any idea of who they are.

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Biffyshrew wrote: Some of you may be familiar with the Japanese practice of including lyrics in all records, often transcribed by ear by someone who has a very imperfect grasp of the language the record is sung in.

Ronald L Smith has provided 'Beyond the Pale' with a compendium of such mishearings at

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We have absolutely no confirmation at all that Procol Harum will be recording again in 1998, beyond Gary Brooker's intriguing remarks on Dutch TV's Cor and Co last month before he sang Holding On.

Yet we know the online Procol community would not forgive us if 'Beyond the Pale' failed to pass on these snippets of dialogue between Gary and the programme's presenter, who began the show playing AWSoP at the piano alongside some well-known Dutch Hammond player. Gary's voice suddenly cut in, and he was discovered sitting in the bar. He got his beer, and the host got a glass of milk. Jens Anders Ravnaas transcribed what followed ... •It's the30th anniversary for that song this year. Are there going to be any celebrations? •Yes, we had a huge party in July to celebrate that. The problem is most of us couldn't remember why we were all there.

(Conversation then turns to the Hammond organ and the Ringo tour of Europe in 1998) •Are there any plans for a new album next year? •Yes, we are going to make a new Procol Harum album in the new year. •Really? •(Gary smiles obliquely) Yes, we found some old songs. •Are you currently writing any new songs? •Yes, when I've got some time for it. But I am doing so much cooking at home these days, so I don't have very much time.

At the moment we know no more than this, and PHans will certainly want to mail record companies, magazines etc for themselves to see if more detail can be gleaned.

But ... note Kellogs's Redhill remark that 'we mustn't let this die'; note the increased activity of Mick Grabham in Procol circles during 1997; note the presence of many Procolers at Chiddingfold 1997; note the backlog of excellent unrecorded songs such as Last Train to Niagara; note the presence of Keith Reid in England over Christmas; ... and note the emergence of a huge community of online Procol Harum fans who are willing this new album into existence with every fibre of their beings!

==or subscription commands http://po.internetrti.com/guest/RemoteListSummary/Procol ------------------------------------------------------------------

I still haven't written up my impressions of MF's solo albums, but the following is kind of related - in the sense that MF did seem to leave much of his Celestial/Bach/Baroque-influenced sound behind when he left PH. One reason may be the instrument he had to work with - or not work with. More about this at the end of the post:

There's a new book out published by Keyboard Magazine (not Keyboard Review) - called "The Hammond Organ, Beauty in the B" - by Associate Editor Mark Vail (Miller Freeman Books, San Francisco, 1997). AWSoP is mentioned right at the start of the book - the First song mentioned. The Introduction begins:"Ahhh, that sound. That glorious sound. Staccato attacks stabbing through the horn section. Sorrowful wailings that breath [sic] against the beat. Electrifying glissandos pumping up the blood pressure, ushering in the climax. Those accidental notes and the familiar held note with descending bass and flavorful backbeat traps that lead into the chilling 'Whiter Shade of Pale' by Procol Harum..." Then on page 216: "One of my all-time favorite B-3 [sic] songs is Procol Harum's "A Whiter Shade of Pale," by Keith Reid and Garry [sic] Brooker (ASCAP). I found it on the Big Chill Soundtrack CD, vol. 1 (Motown)." That Gary and Keith had Nothing to do with the Hammond organ in that song - which is the Only thing the book is talking about - didn't occur to the author. But MF is mentioned later in the book in a discussion of harmonic percussion on the "B3" - "Matthew Fischer [sic] of Procol Harum used the second harmonic..." I have no idea if that's right or not.. I can't blame the author for not listing MF as co-composer of AWSoP (MF Is co-composer, but not officially - yet) but Mark V. made quite a few other mistakes, didn't he? And he's a professional keyboard player with a Master's of Fine Arts degree in Electronic Music and Recording Media - or so he says <G..I'll probably be writing to Mark (you know me <g).. Keyboard Mag has a WebPage: http://www.keyboardmag.com

Judging from the above it seems that MF was certainly right when he said on his WebPage that it's a very common misconception that AWSoP was played on a B3:

"...it was an M100 I used on the session (an M102 to be exact).... Incidentally, if you meet someone with the M102, tell them I'd like it back, please (it was stolen in the 70's). "

That statement, when combined with the next one, is very significant, in my opinion:

From the Keyboard Review Magazine interview of 4/92, ....You see, Matthew Fisher doesn't actually own a Hammond. "I used to own one but it got stolen. I lent the M100 to Procol Harum and they lost it," he says, referring to a certain roadie who seemed to have itchy fingers. <<

So he hasn't owned a Hammond since the early '70's!! I think the lack of daily access to a Hammond may be one reason he didn't continue to create music in that Bach-like Celestial style of his.

And -- since MF's Hammond was entrusted to their care when it was stolen, Gary and Keith Owed MF a Hammond as reinbursement; they STILL owe him one! Why they never realized this is Beyond Me!! Perhaps they will some day, if someone they trust and respect explains it to one of them - Gary probably being the Best Bet. I'm hoping this sad injustice will be corrected in the not-too-distant future. If it is, maybe we'll be treated to some new Celestial music from MF after all..

In the Detroit area the first radio play of AWSoP was a black station WCHB 1440 AM "Soul Radio" in 1967. The Bach comparison is interesting also consider Percy Sledge's "When A Man Loves A Woman" -NOT Michael Bolton's.

There might be some truth to it. Percy Sledge's "When A Man Loves A Woman" appeared in 1996, right? The two songs have very much in common in terms of arrangement, bluesy vocals, etc.. Has anybody investigated this?

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Though I've been on this list for some weeks, I haven't really=20 introduced myself properly. My apologies - and my introduction:

I'm from Sweden, working as a professional web-designer -used to be a graphic designer and journalist. Studied musicology and russian at Stockholm University. Married, three kids between 10 and 3. And, of course, spellbound by the music of Procol Harum since the first time I heard AWSOP.

Let me ask you all this question: For how many songs can you recall the exact time and place where you heard it the first time? The people who were there, the exact words that were spoken?=20

I can for only one song beside AWSOP (*). Ever since then (not quite 30 years ago; I was asleep in 1967, so I was hit by it a few years later), Procols music has been with me - in joy, in grief, gilded the good times, comforted me in bad times....

To be honest, maybe one should admit that although PH were (are) terribly underestimated by the big audiences, well maybe, friends, they weren't really the greatest band on earth.=20 BUT the music they made is definitely the music closest to MY heart - and that, of course, is what really matters to us all.

It's really great to experience the company of Procolites around the globe, through this wonderful Internet. I take the opportunity to mention a few other acts that has been important to me, and which I feel are somewhat forgotten or underrated: if anyone shares an interest in Carmen, Jack the Lad, Steve Hillage, Magna Charta, Camel, Al Stewart, Lindisfarne, Planxty, the Mark-Almond Band (not Marc Almond!), do drop me a line in private.

*) Note: Springsteens "Born to run", actually. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I first heard AWSoP I just assumed it was a black soul singer from the USA named Procol Harum, who was - in a stroke of Brilliance! - recorded over a piece by Bach!! Some people still believe some variant of the Bach mistake, sadly..

In a recent 5/97 interview reprinted in the 8/97 (I think) Shine On, when asked about that song, Gary denied that it was an influence. In the 90's he's been citing Air on a G String - the bass progression and chord structure - which he heard in a cigar ad on the telly - as influencing the vocal melody of the song. [In so many words, in the Shine On interview, Gary admitted that Matthew composed the organ melody]. But the Sledge song has the same chord structure and bass progression as does Air on a G String, as do many other previous songs - some by Dylan. As far as I know, Gary never mentioned Air on a G String in the many interviews he did about the song in the 60's and 70's..If he did - I hope someone cites a reference.. As far as I know, in the early years, Gary said his main influences were R&B and Dylan, and that his piano training was in Pop music, not classical.

I believe it was Matthew who brought the main Classical influence into PH - especially the Bach/Baroque style. Even on the songs he's not credited as composing, his organ melodies add that element - Homburg is a good example. SOB another.. After he left, Gary went on to compose classically oriented songs - Great ones! - but they weren't very Bach- or Baroque-like - rather they were more in the style of the Romantic composers. I just realized this very recently. The thing I love most about PH's music has always been that Bach influence in the early work of the band; I always associated that influence with Gary, and I've just begun to realize how wrong I've been about that for almost 30 years. Multiply that by the tens of thousands of PH fans who still make that mistake - and the Millions of AWSoP fans who do too, of course - and you begin to see why I think we all owe Matthew Fisher a Huge Debt.

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After having lurked on this mailing list for a month, I guess its finally time for me introduce myself. I'm Jon, a transplanted New Yorker living in Virginia. I've been a Procol fan since the early 70'sand have seen the band live 7 or 8 times during the early 70's when they frequently played in the New York City area. I, like most everyone else who had a pulse in the late 60's, was very familiar with the song AWSoP, and I knew Homburg as well. However, it wasn't until my brother brought home the Home album that I realized that they were far more than "skip the light fandango". In 1970 I simultaneously started my freshman year in college (SUNY at Stony Brook) and began to purchase the earlier Procol albums starting with their first.

At Stony Brook, in my circle of friends, you were identified by the music you listened too. In the vernacular of the day, you were a "freak" for a certain band. There were plenty of "Dead Freaks" and "Eagles Freaks", but I was THE "Procol Harum Freak", the only one I knew. Their music constantly played either on my stereo or in my head throughout my college years and I fondly think of listening to A Salty Dog while studying in my dorm room. They were my life's soundtrack.

I am not a musician nor have any connection with the band, but I can relate one "Procol Harum Encounter". I attended a PH concert in Central Park. Back then, an ice skating rink was converted into an outdoor theater, and series of concerts was given there every summer. At this particular concert, I seem to remember seeing Dave Ball as a new guitarist and there were a lot of rumors that Matthew Fisher would rejoin the band. (My memory is a little vague on this.) However, Chris Copping was on organ, and the band seemed to be in good form but they were experiencing a lot of technical problems. At one point, during Whaling Stories (where they got to the line about "Boiling oil and shrieking steam"), one of the amps blew and they just stopped the song. To fill the time, Gary bantered with the audience. He looked out and asked, "does anyone know what Procol Harum means?" There was dead silence. I said softly to my girlfriend sitting next to me "beyond these things." Well, even though we were sitting 20 rows back, the acoustics of the place was such that Gary clearly heard me, and he said "that's right!" Then he asked, "do you know what Procol Harum is?", and I said "cat". "Well", he replied, "we have a fan out there". The amp was fixed, they picked up the song where they stopped ("lightning struck out fire and brimstone..."), and I had the biggest ear-to-ear grin for the rest of the night.

I have recently discovered the Beyond the Pale website. My compliments go to the webmasters - a job well done!!! Through the site, I have discovered a wealth of CD releases that I was unaware of, and I have been gobbling them up: Matthew Fisher solo album reissues, Paramounts, The Long Goodbye. I have started replacing my vinyl copies of certain albums like Grand Hotel and Exotic Birds and Fruit (with Drunk Again as a new-to-me PH song!). After having felt isolated as a PH fan for the last 20 years, its great to see a thriving on-line community of fans.

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To: procol@progrock.org Actually, I thought it was Ray Charles up until about '72...(of course I thought it was the most amazing thing Ray Charles had ever done :)

'Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid'...Zappa

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'Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid'...Zappa

Dennis : Great Zappa quote. I saw a symposium at Syracuase University around 1975 with Zappa, who brought along Captain Beefheart and George Duke. It was one of the most enteratining and informative 90 minutes I ever spent. Keep those quotes coming.

Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if Zappa had any considered opinions on Procol Harum. Knowing his inclination for scathing criticism and general dislike of many musical forms, I might not want to know. Anyone out there have any idea of his view on this if there is one??? cerdes96 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zappa always claimed that he didn't listen to much contemporary rock music, and I can't remember him ever mentioning Procol, though maybe if I dig deep enough I might be able to turn up a reference to Robin Trower somewhere. I do know that Zappa stole Eddie Jobson away from Procol: Jobson had auditioned for PH and been invited to join, when he got the call from Zappa asking him to join *his* band. Jobson opted for Zappa and Procol turned to Pete Solley.

Your pal, Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- ...visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do know that Zappa stole Eddie Jobson away from Procol: Jobson had auditioned for PH and been invited to join, when he got the call from Zappa asking him to join *his* band.

Fascinating! Where does this story come from? Jobson (ex Roxy Music) would have been a big, big name for PH. He had a fat CV by that time too, from Amazing Blondel to Curved Air via John Entwistle, Dana Gillespie, Roger Glover, and most of the Roxy spinoff solo projects.

But when was this Jobson/PH episode? 1976? Jobson recorded with King Crimson in 1977, and not with Zappa (I think) until 1978. Or perhaps that's only the dates when the records were issued.

Interesting that PH took up with Pete Solley instead, another keyboardist+violinist. Perhaps 'This Old Dog' was the driving force at audition!

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Stumbling upon the Procol Harum site was like running into old friends. I was lucky to have seen them in the early 70's at the Atlanta Municipal Auditorium. As the announcer said when introducing them, they were "...a band of unusual taste and quality." How true that was, all the way through to their encore of "Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On."

I don't condone bootlegs, but I have to ask if anyone knows of one entitled "Shine On Live" which was of relatively good sound quality. It contained live versions of songs from "Broken Barricades" as well as a lovely little instrumental boogie which showcased Robin Trower's excellent Stratocaster work. I don't have a copy, but I'd love to swap comments and chat with anyone else who's heard it.

Steve Campos Rohnert Park, CA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't condone bootlegs either and when I must pay for one, I compensate PH by buying an extra copy of one of their CD's.. BUT I think PH could prevent most of the bootlegging if they'd Just Release some of the GREAT LIVE material that's out there - i.e. get GOOD Quality Copies of those boots and release them commercially.. I don't know WHY they haven't done this yet!

As many PH online fans already know, I've been ranting and raving about that Shine On Live gig for some time now - wishing selected cuts could be released (in HiFi form, of course) as Bonus Tracks to a BB Reissue - the 5 BB songs plus Juicy John Pink. They all put the album versions to Shame, imo.. I think JJP must be the "boogie" to which you refer - a FANTASTIC tour de force for RT and BJW!!!! It was on the ASD album but in a terrible version, imo - no BJ (he was replaced by handclaps and footstomps - I DON't KNOW WHY!!!!) and an Awful harmonica throughout. I'm a MAJOR Matthew Fisher admirer, but NOT in his capacity as producer of that album - Especially JJP!! I didn't even Like that song until I heard it on that Boot. BTW that gig was recorded by WPLJ radio in NYC - in 1971 shortly before RT left.

And in a related story -- I just got a RT BOOT from Bedlam Records - 9 RT tracks and 6 PH tracks - including Memorial Drive and SOB from the WPLJ (why not JJP?? Damn! ) plus a version of Into the Flood that's listed as an "outtake" from the Prodigal Stranger sessions. You can sure hear the difference between BJ's drums and that metronomic digital garbage can or whatever that Mark B. was playing! Neither he nor BJ was credited on the liner notes, sadly.. Other tracks - the BBC version of AWSoP; Seem to Have the Blues and Poison Ivy. I can't tell if the latter is really PH or the Paramounts.. It's nice to hear some WPLJ on a PH CD even if it is a boot. The SOB is interesting because right before the organ solo - played by Chris Copping of course - Gary can be heard to say "Matthew!---"... Mental Blocks are Frequent, as he himself said! LOL!!!! Two years later and he was still missing MF, as well he should have been. I also noticed that audience members were frequently shouting 2 things between songs -- "BJ!!!" and "Repent!" We all know why the former, don't we?! To the latter, I think Gary said "Oh we have some of THOSE here,do we?" or something to that effect. I recently realized that, in the context of that gig, "Repent!" probably meant "Bring Back Matthew Fisher!"

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I think JJP must be the "boogie" to which you refer - a FANTASTIC tour de force for RT and BJW!!!! It was on the ASD album but in a terrible version, imo - no BJ (he was replaced by handclaps and footstomps - I DON't KNOW WHY!!!!) and an Awful harmonica throughout. I'm a MAJOR Matthew Fisher admirer, but NOT in his capacity as producer of that album - Especially JJP!!

Joan : I think they were trying to get the feel of an authentic, delta blues performance, obviously. I can see why MF would have produced it that way, and I think it works well on the album, which is so brilliant because of the kaleidoscope of musical textures throughout. And I do have the PLJ concert and I love that version, too. Speaking of boots, being a fan of the underrated Exotic Birds & Fruit, the Dallas 1974 K-ZEW show is also outstanding (and in stereo!) If there are any doubts as to BJ's genius, his incredible solo on Power Failure should convince any and all doubters.

Cheers! Jim M. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But when was this Jobson/PH episode? 1976? Jobson recorded with King Crimson in 1977, and not with Zappa (I think) until 1978. Or perhaps that's only the dates when the records were issued.

It was spring 1976. Here's the way Jobson tells it in the February/March 1977 issue of _Trouser Press_:

"After the Roxy tours my verbal commitment expired and they decided to go off the road. I called up a lot of session fixers and got them to do that. Procol Harum called me up and asked if I wanted to do a tour with them. I thought, if I'm going to go on the road with somebody, I may as well try and go with somebody that would be really good to work for. I called Frank and asked him if the offer was still open, and he said yes. [Zappa had offered Jobson a place in his band while he was still committed to Roxy Music.] The next day I went to play with Procol Harum. That worked out pretty well, but I told them I had to speak to Zappa. So I called up Frank, and he said, 'Get over here as soon as you can,' and so a week later I was there."

Jobson's only major recorded appearance with Zappa was on the _Zappa In New York_ LP, recorded late 1976 (but not released until 1978). He had appeared on the cover of the previous Zappa LP, _Zoot Allures_ (1976), but he did not play on the album, which was recorded before he joined. BTW, Jobson was never actually a member of King Crimson--he only did a session for them, providing overdubs for their live album _USA_, released in 1975.

Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- ...visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<< I think they were trying to get the feel of an authentic, delta blues performance, obviously. I can see why MF would have produced it that way, and I think it works well on the album, which is so brilliant because of the kaleidoscope of musical textures throughout.

Exactly. Brrooker had said it was recorded in a friend's basement with one mike and Brooker standing about 12 feet away to get that unpolished raw blues sound. It works as a period piece for this reason. Totally authentic blues..not processed and slick....great idea of their parts. Cerdes96 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CERDES96 wrote: In a message dated 1/15/98 9:31:36 AM EST, jaymor2n@herald.infi.net writes: << I think they were trying to get the feel of an authentic, delta blues performance, obviously. I can see why MF would have produced it that way, and I think it works well on the album, which is so brilliant because of the kaleidoscope of musical textures throughout. Exactly. Brrooker had said it was recorded in a friend's basement with one mike and Brooker standing about 12 feet away to get that unpolished raw blues sound. It works as a period piece for this reason. Totally authentic blues..not processed and slick....great idea of their parts. Cerdes96

Thanks for that story. I was completely unaware of it. Besides, besides the great lyrics and Gary's vocal, the most important part of either arrangement is still Robin's guitar.

Jim Morin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My name is Raymond Billedeau. I was born in Toronto, Canada, but now live in Orlando, Florida. Of course, I'm an old fan from the start (almost as old as Gary!). I'd enjoy communicating about the band, and would like info on upcoming concerts in America and England. I plan to travel to Great Britain in 98, and would love to see PH or Trower. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi! I'm not big on introductions, but many of you know me as Pat from Kansas (USA). I will finally contribute in here with two quick thoughts:

As I recall, this WPLJ show took place in about April 1971 -- after Broken Barricades and not too long before Robin Trower left. We also know that Matthew Fisher was going to rejoin Procol at some point -- late '71 or early '72? -- but he decided he couldn't work with Dave Ball. (Or so the story goes....) So my question is: Is it at all possible that Matthew had rejoined Procol for that WPLJ gig? -- Maybe to test the waters before Trower left? -- So maybe that IS Matthew on Hammond, with Copping just on bass? (I don't remember right now if the band is introduced on that gig. That, of course, would provide the definitive answer.) And maybe Trower then left, and Fisher never warmed up to Dave Ball. Of course, the more accepted theory is that Fisher probably didn't think about (or was asked about) rejoining until after Trower left, and he quickly discovered or decided he didn't want to work with Mr. Ball.

Re: Original Rocky Horror Picture Show Soundtrack (Here's a repeat of something I posted on America Online awhile back)

My only bit of news is that I picked up that "Rocky Horror Picture Show: Sing It!" CD. It says it is the original soundtrack music (sans lead vocals) from the movie. However, they fail to list B.J. Wilson (drums) or Mick Grabham (guitar) in the band credits. Oddly enough, they do list other musicians -- another guitarist or two, but no drummer. In listening to it though, it is definitely the original movie music -- and B.J. is definitely there playing drums on most, if not all, of it. (We would all know his playing anywhere, right?) Some of the guitar work sounds a lot like Mick Grabham, also. How strange that they fail to credit B.J. or Mick. Now I'm tempted to pick up the original soundtrack CD (with lead vocals), and see what it says. (Heck, at this rate, I should have just bought the darn Rocky Horror box set!) Does anyone have the original Rocky Horror Picture Show soundtrack LP? Does it credit B.J. and/or Mick? I know that the credits at the end of the video of the movie do list B.J. and Mick.

Thanks, Pat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a message dated 1/17/98 3:25:21 PM EST, Phast@aol.com writes: << -- So maybe that IS Matthew on Hammond, with Copping just on bass? (I don't remember right now if the band is introduced on that gig. That, of course, would provide the definitive answer.) The definitve answer is in the playing of the organ, ( that is NOT Matthew) the timbre of the two distinct bass tones as generated by bass guitars and keyboard basses and in the fact that there are many songs without organ at all and not a hint of another member..The theory is implausible but I see where you were heading......Cerdes96 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello I'am Eric from Holland. When I was eleven years old I heard AWSOP over and over again on the dutch radio, and I as a true Beatles fan, I hated that song. How strange life could be when two years later a beautiful melody proped up. I loved it right away, only i did not kwow what the title was. I went to my local dealer and humed the tune. Finally it seemed to be a salty dog. It was the beginning of my procol adoration. Now so many years later I still am. Besides all the albums and cd's i try to find so called bootlegs.

At the moment I'am looking for a CD called old lamps for new. This is the Barbican Concert from '96. Is there anyone who can tell me how to get this cd? (note, i saw and heard gary's remarks in the latest dutch tv show, Cor &Co about a new procol recording. My conclusion, he was joking.

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from the age of 17 I had assumed that the lyric in Shine on Brightly was faloperies (not 'fat old buddhas') carved in gold as the song sheet says this makes more sense in a way as Dr.Falopisu was a 16th century physician whom the fallopian tube is named after and it meshes more with the jesus reference (three kings deputising for wise men and the inssane person in the songs having delusions of grandeur as being jesus, batman, etc.) . I'm convinced that the sung text is faloperies as the t and sounds in the alleged text would not fit. I have been reliably informed that Gary Brooker did mumble words which were not what KR wrote rather than seek revisions in those days. Listening to some live tapes in the 1990's it still sound like he says faloperies and if you play it to a non-fan and ask them what the words are they never say fat old buddhas. From a thin middle aged atheist. Goodnight! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

eric wrote (clipped): At the moment I'am looking for a CD called old lamps for new. This is = the Barbican Concert from '96. Is there anyone who can tell me how to = get this cd?<<

Eric... the return e-mail address on your post bounced.... I have the information you requested (the source is in Germany). Drop me a line! regards, AL

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You don't need introductions to tell who plays oregan for PH. You tell by the playing - and that is not Mathhew Fisher. Listen to the Easter Island 1969 show with MF and you can tell the difference like day and night. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to ask you a question concerning the 'The Procol Harum Story', braodcasted by the Dutch TROS radio, but like Alan, I have trouble reaching you.

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" So my question is: Is it at all possible that Matthew had rejoined Procol for that WPLJ gig? "

Answer: Definitely not. I was front row, organ-side for that in-studio show. Mr Copping handled Hammond duties.

Cathy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from the age of 17 I had assumed that the lyric in Shine on Brightly was faloperies (not 'fat old buddhas') carved in gold as the song sheet says -----------------End of Original Message----------------- i've alway heard this as "fat old bullies" as in the "Golden Calf"... again continuing the biblical reference.

------------------------------------- Name: Julius J. SAROKA E-mail: drj_saro <drj_saro@neo.lrun.com

This message was sent by Chameleon (in the Shadow of the Night) -------------------------------------

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Answer: Definitely not. I was front row, organ-side for that in-studio show. Mr Copping handled Hammond duties. <<

WOW!!! You were at WPLJ???? Can you tell us how it sounded from INSIDE?? Was BJ as Loud as he deserved to be?? Of course, after MF left, the Hammond was mainly a background instrument - still essential to the PH sound, but not one of the exciting elements, imo. BJ had to take up the slack in the Instrumental-Excitement dept. - sometimes aided by RT or MG... and he did his job Beautifully LIVE - sadly not well captured on the poorly-sound-engineered albums.. !

I'm hoping that radio station still has a tape of the show, and that the sound quality is significantly better than the boot I have - for commercial release someday - a Showcase for BJW and RT especially... ( Selected tracks of course - NOT where Gary sings FLAT on ASD and WS..).. Juicy John Pink cranked up to Eleven - even on the LoFi boot - that's HEAVEN to me!! :-) :-) How did that one sound LIVE?

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I have a pretty good tape of this - maybe two generations from the radio with stereo sound. I would be willing to trade tapes with anyone who has stuff I don't have.

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from Sam Cameron in Bradford,England from the age of 17 I had assumed that the lyric in Shine on Brightly was faloperies (not 'fat old buddhas') carved in gold

Listening to some live tapes in the 1990's it still sound like he says faloperies

Listening to the original record, it certainly sounds more like "faloperies". But when I listen to SOB recorded in Stockholm during the prodigal tour, "fat old buddahs" can be heard quite clearly. (The show was recorded by Swedish National Radio an aired some months or so after the concert).

BTW, my trusted disctonary is letting me down here. I know what fallopian tubes are - is just faloperies a synonym or what?

regards, Jonas jonas@procolharum.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hear "fat old Buddhas", and it seems obvious that the UK front sleeve of SOB (not the mannequin one) was based on the same hearing of that (and on another parts of the title song). By the way, in my country (via Brazil) "falopa" means "dope" and "falopero" is a dope consumer.

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From: "Piotr Wlaz" <wlaz@ursus.ar.lublin.pl Organization: Agricultural University

Great news! Probably sooner or later we will have Broken Barricades as an audiophile re-release.

Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by (wlaz@ursus.ar.lublin.pl) on Thursday, January 15, 1998 at 13:00:54 Message: Do you plan to reissue anything by Procol Harum? (...)

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--------- from samcameron in repsonse to my faloperies query i have to say i was not joking thats what i always heard and some people agree with me i must reiterate that gary brooker deliberately mumbled what was singable in those days rather than quibble with the dogmatic kr (check out the text of Mojo magazine in 1995 and have you noticed the meticulous use of semicolons etc. in the lyric sheet to the original vinyl of 'Home' for Whaling Stories) and fat old buddhas is not that easy to sing without holding up the song obviously he does try to sing that in the 90's because he has not sung it for years so he has looked up the official text now to faloperies ; no they don't exist but if they did it would be some representation of the virgin birth i.e. carving these in gold to celebrate the miracle of the virgin birth this does make more sense because they lyric as i said before depicts the authorial voice as thinking he is jesus and the three kings are the wisemen and giving him a faloperie makes more sense than giving him a buddha ok it doesnt exist but neither does Cerdes and what are those things mentioned in All this and more all about . thank you and good afternoon

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What ever you meant might have been correct but the words are definately 'fat old Buddah's'. Can anyone tell me how to get a hold of some of the newer Procol Harum music. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only other argument I have for 'fat old Buddhas' is the line right after it - 'and though it seems they smile with glee, I know in truth they envy me' - every fat old buddha statue I have seen has a smile from ear to ear, and if indeed Keith Reid is painting himself as a Christ-like figure, then he may think the Buddha is envious of him, since he is the 'son of God.' This is how I've always interpreted the lyrics, and in that light, I think 'fat old Buddhas' makes absolute perfect sense, or at least as much sense as the rest of the song.

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<< a faloperie makes more sense than giving him a buddha ok it doesnt exist but neither does Cerdes and what are those things mentioned in All this and more all about . t

With no disrespect intended, you are apparently not that well schooled a scholar in the music of PH.....The many live versions of Shine On Brightly which I have, dating back to 1968 and into the 90's, all clearly echo.."fat old buddhas". Additionally, there is nothing enigmatic about the lyrical content to All This And More...Mad Ox...etc...all is clear with a headphone listening or two of the songs. cerdes96 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: procol@progrock.org 20/1/98 you write With no disrespect intended, you are apparently not that well schooled a scholar in the music of PH.....The many live versions of Shine On Brightly which I have, dating back to 1968 and into the 90's, all clearly echo.."fat old buddhas". Additionally, there is nothing enigmatic about the lyrical content to All This And More...Mad Ox...etc...all is clear with a headphone listening or two of the songs. cerdes96 with no disrespect intended you are using the name of a place that doesn't exist by and large there are not 'official' ie KR sanctioned lyrics to PH songs if you look up the Shine On website you will find that they have transcribed the lyrics to AT&M as Maddox (a person) and not Mad Ox elswhere it refers to Lollard (another person ie a 14th century religious heretic) I do not know who Maddox might be i.e. I haven't got time to look it up

I like a surrealistic lyric as much as the next Cerdean but could you tell me how easy you find it to visualize a mad ox feasting and drinking whether or not it does it on headphones i am not claiming scholarship only hearing abilities and i have never seriously disagreed with the lyric sheets of thousands of other songs next thing you'll be telling me it doesn't sound like "when you're bedding down to right a song" rather than "when you're being held to ransom" on ASAS (yes I l know what the proper lyric is ( I wait until you come kiss the door) Sam no ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dave pettit wrote: The only other argument I have for 'fat old Buddhas' is the line right after it - 'and though it seems they smile with glee, I know in truth they envy me' - every fat old buddha statue I have seen has a smile from ear to ear, and if indeed Keith Reid is painting himself as a Christ-like figure, then he may think the Buddha is envious of him, since he is the 'son of God.' This is how I've always interpreted the lyrics, and in that light, I think 'fat old Buddhas' makes absolute perfect sense, or at least as much sense as the rest of the song.

Jim Morin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know if this helps but I do know that Maddox was a Welsh warrior some time in the middle ages. This information can be found on the Maddox home page. Unfortunately I don't know the address off hand but if anyone really wants it, just ask.

Kev ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Shine On Brightly it is definitely fat old buddhas. One theme of the album is definitely the Eastern ersatz spirituality that was in vogue at the time, emphasized in In Held Twas In I by both the shaggy-dog five year conversation with the Dalai Lama and the use of the sitar.

In All This and More it would seem to have to be a Maddox. The plural of ox is oxen and to read gramatically the line would have to be "like mad oxen in the days of old we'll feast and drink" etc.

================================================================ NEW! My latest CD, Resolution, is available online along with essays on the Beatles and the Beach Boys, at:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzex6mhq/index.htm ================================================================

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I decided to send a post explaining the procedures for the list, and subscription commands. I have yet to send one of these since we started back last summer.

Here is a short list of things acceptable topics and things not acceptable on the list. First the acceptable:

1) Anything pertaining to the band Procol Harum, and the members therin (ie. Gary Brooker, Matthew Fisher, Robin Trower etc.) as it pertains to Procol harum.

2) Discussing the related artists solo work is ok as well but shouldn't be the main focus.

3) Occasional comments about an artist not related at all to either artist but maybe of great interest to list members is occasionally ok but only in brief. This sort of thing is best when added to a post which is topical.

4) stuff not related whatsoever to List topics should only be added to a post which does contain topical content. If not, then please refrain.

1) "Me too" posts that have nothing but that in them. Please expound if that is all you have to say in a post. Often these posts are best sent to the person in private.

2) Flamings. This is self explanatory. You guys know this is not acceptable. This also includes forwarding of private mail that is part of a private flame war. Hasn't come up on this list really.

3) silly forwards. When you get "chain mail" or "virus warnings" etc. Please do not send these to the list. 99.9% of the time these virus warnings are hoaxes, and even if they aren't don't send them. They are ploys to garner e-mail addresses for SPAM-ming.

5) profane language. An occasional cuss word isn't going to get anyone tossed but please mind thy tongue. (This has yet to be any problem on the list)

I could get into even more detail but most of all just use good judgement when posting, remember that every post you send goes to over 100 people and these posts are archived on the web for later viewing. (I'm still working on this last part)

And now for the procedures for subscribing, unsubscribing, setting it for digest etc etc.

To subscribe to the list you can simply go to the web page address at the bottom of every email sent to the list, or send the message SUBSCRIBE PROCOL to list.manager@progrock.org

To unsubscribe from the list, you can simply go to the web page address at the bottom of every email sent to the list, or send the message UNSUBSCRIBE PROCOL to list.manager@progrock.org

To get the Digest version of the list you have to first unsubscribe to the normal one. Then after you do this, send the message SUBSCRIBE PROCOL DIGEST to list.manager@progrock.org

To unsubscribe from the Digest, send UNSUBSCRIBE PROCOL DIGEST to list.manager@progrock.org

In order to change your list subscription format from regular to digest or digest to regular, you need to unsubscribe then re-subscribe to the format desired.

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From: dave pettit <dhpett0@sac.uky.edu The only other argument I have for 'fat old Buddhas' is the line right after it - 'and though it seems they smile with glee, I know in truth they envy me' - every fat old buddha statue I have seen has a smile from ear to ear, and if indeed Keith Reid is painting himself as a Christ-like figure, then he may think the Buddha is envious of him, since he is the 'son of God.' This is how I've always interpreted the lyrics, and in that light, I think 'fat old Buddhas' makes absolute perfect sense, or at least as much sense as the rest of the song.

-----------------End of Original Message----------------- two points... 1. i always interpreted it to mean that the _wise guys_ were smiling and envious, not the golden statues (whatever they were). 2. i don't think that _KR_ was painting _himself_ in the lyrics, i would assume that it was a _character_ in the story of the song, _NOT_ autobiography!

------------------------------------- Name: Julius J. SAROKA E-mail: drj_saro <drj_saro@neo.lrun.com

This message was sent by Chameleon (in the Shadow of the Night) -------------------------------------

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At 12:56 23/01/98 +0100, Wilfried Van Damme wrote: Check out the latest addition to the BtP Guestbook!!

Keith and Gary had their first-ever online experience yesterday in a Soho cybercafe, and BtP feel greatly honoured that they made for our Guestbook, gracing it in entirely typical fashion.

Sadly, however, we have to advise fans that there is no new Procol Harum album planned, despite Gary's recent remarks on Dutch television.

'Sources close to the poet denied it' is the exact wording that I have been empowered to use!

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Ive been a Music Fan for a long time and always like WSOP and just recently started listening to the Procol CDs from a friend of mine who has been a Fan since the 70s and the Broken Barricades tour I would like to obtain a CD copy Of thr Live at Edmonton and Broken Barricades cds. I just got the 30th aniversary box and have been listening to it for days on end Thanks John Spears ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings! I'm not sure who or what I'm talking to. I'm cyber challenged, and communicating this way feels kind of like I'm dabbling in some sort of ouija board hijinx. It's creepy. I was obsessed with Procol for many years, starting when I was about 12 in 1968. Lots of memories. Perhaps I may be useful in sharing some dusty Procol related factoids for more younger/recent fans. I have to tell you that I did not much care for Prodigal Stranger; I still enjoy listening to the band, but I'm not at the same pitch of fanatical interest as I once was. I would still love to banter about the group, though. Back in '85 or 86, I picked up a Procol fanzine from the UK. It was an extended interview with Keith Reid .The mag. is long gone unfortunately, and thru no fault of my own. If I recall correctly, Reid was working as a PR man or something such for a record company. It sounded like a lowly job, regardless. Would love to know what his current status is. Recently I came across a Procol CD boot that I was considering picking up. I'd love to know if anyone has info on it. It's pretty pricey, but very appealing. I don't recall the name, but it features a heaping helping of early Procol material, and all of it from UK radio shows(and perhaps TV appearences?). Anybody have it/heard it, and can give a consumer tip? Regards to all ye fanboys and fangirls--Oleh. Bandura520@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recently I bought what I think is an original copy of the sheet music for "A Whiter Shade of Pale" very cheaply at an antique book shop. Can anyone tell me if these are rare or expensive.

Here's hoping Kev Mad. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summing up my feelings about Procol Harum in a few words will surely take several postings, so here we go...the first memory I have of hearing Procol Harum was in the summer of '68 as my uncle and my cousin and I were driving up to Fenway Park in Boston to see a baseball game. "A Whiter Shade of Pale" was on the radio. I can remember liking it, because the feeling was different--I think it sounded like church music. Little did I realize how profoundly their music would affect and influence me--more than any other music--over the years and be guiding me still. I've been blessed to have seen them three times in the last several years, after those years of not touring and fearing that we'd never see them live again. And I most recently saw Gary with Ringo at the Mohegan Sun in Conn. "The Devil came from Kansas" ruled!

Ollie ~ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fellow Procolophiles, Can anyone tell me where I can get a CD copy of The 1973 LA PH show with the Philharmonic? My copy was..shall I say..."appropriated" a few years back. Any leads would be greatly appreciated.

C96 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<< Robertson has been known to diss PH.. from BTP Robbie Robertson is quite the arrogant primadonna. His earliest comment on Procol was that most of the music sounded like AWSOP. The man has tin ears. While a writer of some ability,he has his drawbacks as well. His guitar playing is not exactly inspiring . As much as I appreciate the Band, Robertson needs to put himself and his opinions into some sort of perspective. He once introduced Metallica at an awards ceremony. While I am not particularly taken by Metallica's music, his overt contempt and disdain were clear. He might have at least extended a professional courtesy to the group. Instead, he denigrated right there on national television. cerdes96 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look who's talking! Robbie Robertson has been barking up the same tree for decades!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<< Look who's talking! Robbie Robertson has been barking up the same tree for decades!! The guy is responsible for being everything that people have accused PH of being for years....POMPOUS!!!!!! :+) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------